What are Jarmila and Marita up to today?

[trackhead]

Anyone know what these superstars did after their athletics careers ended? I was wondering what kind of state they're in now.

[Rob]

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[Powell]

I know Kratochvilova is now a coach. Her biggest caoching success was taking Formanova to a world championship double (indoors and out) in 1999.

[Rog]

Rob,

Thank you for providing that information on Marita Koch. I was a huge fan of the GDR team as a kid in the 1980s, however as a resident of the UK their athletes had a kind of anonymous - enigmatic, even - air about them. TV coverage didn't feature interviews with them, nor did the likes of Athletics Weekly, apart from a couple of interviews with Heike Drechsler and Sabine Busch. I thought at the time that the GDR Political System did not permit their athletes this level of free association, however since then I have seen copies of Track & Field News dating from that time that contain a lot more in the way of quotes and biographical material. Anyway, it is great to finally get a bit more background on them through the internet, albeit many years overdue!

Rob, I have been reading your posts on the T&F and IAAF websites, and you are obviously familiar with them as people. I've often wondered how these great stars - the likes of Marita Koch, Marlies Gohr and Barbel Wockel - have coped with the transition from being superstars of the GDR to mere citizens of a United Germany. Has their status and prestige been affected at all? The impression I get is that many Western fans are rather quick to downplay their achievements, attributing them to drugs etc, rather than just accept and acknowledge their success. It seems to me that there's a fair degree of scapegoating going on, and that the East Germans are easy targets. Specifically, I have noticed that at the European Championships they routinely have former greats present new medallists with their awards, yet apart from Barbel Wockel in 2002 the East Germans never seemed to be invited to undertake this honour.

Anyway, the query I have is this - how have the athletes themselves coped with the loss of their status as privileged citizens of the GDR, and how are they affected by all the controversy surrounding them now?

Many thanks,

Rog

PS I was sorry to hear today of the death of Fanny Blankers Koen. We have truly lost one of the all time greats.

[Rob]

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[Rog]

Rob,

Thank you for your insight, it's much apreciated. Had any of the East German Greats been British, no doubt now they would be clogging up games shows, daytime TV and Big Brother, so at least they still have their dignity!

Surely, however, it would make sense for German Athletics to try to capitalise on their experience and knowledge, since for example none of the current German stars appears to have technique remotely comparable - think of Marita Koch's action as opposed to their current sprinters. Even adoption or adaptation of the East German mental approach could prove beneficial - one of their great strengths was their ability to peak physically and focus mentally at the championships, which as a British athletics fan I noticed wasn't one of our team's particular claims to fame!

I remember watching Sabine Busch in the 80s - I thought surely she would be crowned Olympic 400m hurdles champion in 1988, but she seemed to have a bad year, in keeping with most of the East German track runners, which was most apparent when compared to their successes at the 1987 World Championships. Have you any idea why they suffered this unexpected reversal of fortune?Indeed, I can't help wondering if a reversion to the 400m flat in Seoul wouldn't have yielded the individual medal (silver?) that Sabine failed to win over the hurdles.

Rog

[Rob]

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[bushop]

Thank you for the wonderful discussion you folks have shared with us.

[tandfman]

>Today, the thing that strikes me most is how 'normal' they are - and how anonymously they are treated by society. I have walked around Erfurt with Sabine (her home town) and was amazed that nobody recognised her or said anything. Same story with Renate Stecher, Marlies Göhr and Petra Felke in Jena, as well as Katrin Krabbe in
Neubrandenburg. Having said that, they were brought up in a communist society, and so have no great expectations with regard to their 'status'. Bärbel Wöckel is the Director for Youth Sports Development at the DLV (Deutscher
Leichtathletik-Verband) in Darmstadt, and I believe it was for this reason that she has more public 'exposure' than the others.<

There are several reasons why these athletes are not recognized when the walk down the street. For one thing, I think the same is true of many athletes in many sports in many countries. How many are widely recognizes decades after their careers are over? If you walked down the streets of any American city with Michael Conley, Bob Beamon, Valerie Brisco, Joan Benoit, and/or Evelyn Ashford do you think a lot of people would recognize them as Olympic heroes? I doubt it. I suspect, in fact, that the same would be true of a lot of top baseball and football players of the '80's. And I think the same would also be true in many other countries in sports that produce many well-known athletes.

But in the GDR, there was something more at work. I don't think the GDR sports machine was developed to make the population of the country feel good. I had the impression that their program was much more focused on creating a positive image of the country internationally. Being in a Communist society, they might not have had any reason to have a lot of domestic PR for their athletes. They weren't trying to sell tickets or commercial sponsorhips--they were trying to win medals, so the rest of the world would respect their country. If you went to Olympics and World/Euro championships in those days, there were always groups of foreign tourist sports fans cheering for their. You never saw large tour groups (in fact I'm not sure I ever saw any tour groups) from the GDR, or anywhere else behind the Iron Curtain for that matter. So it's understandable that the retired athletes of that era are not still recognized when they walk down the street in ordinary clothing. It's possible they never really were.


>>Personally I find it very sad that they are not given more credit, but the current (west) German 'system' seems determined to eradicate the legacy of the GDR athletes, which I find very narrow-minded.<<

It's sad, in a way, but very understandable. It is well documented that the use of steroids was an important element of the GDR training system. I'm not even sure that there could have been any exceptions, given the control that the the state had over its athletes. The athletes themselves, of course, were victims of this regimen in a number of ways, one of which is that their athletic achievements will always be stigmatized. This is particularly unfortunate for those who either were exceptions and did not take drugs (if this was possible) or who were such great athletes that with all of the training support they had apart from the drugs, they could have been champions anyway. We'll never know what the facts are for any given athlete.

But in view of the unchallenged documentary evidence of systematic cheating by the GDR, I fully understand why the West-dominated post-wall Germany should be less than enthusiastic in celebrating the athletic legacy of the GDR. They (and most other countries) are still struggling to eliminate the scourge of doping. It does not help the fight against doping or the national image of Germany to lionize a group of athletes who, as a group, whether willingly or unwittingly, were part of a program that based its success at least in part on performance enhancement through the administration of steroids.

[Jon]

>For one thing, I think the same is true of many
>athletes in many sports in many countries. How many are widely recognizes
>decades after their careers are over? If you walked down the streets of any
>American city with Michael Conley, Bob Beamon, Valerie Brisco, Joan Benoit,
>and/or Evelyn Ashford do you think a lot of people would recognize them as
>Olympic heroes? I doubt it.




I can't speak for the US, because athletics isn't as big over there as it is in some European countries. But, if the likes of Daley Thompson, Tessa Sanderson, Fatima Whitbread, Seb Coe, Steve Cram, and Steve Ovett were walking down a street in the UK, chances are that they'd be recognised pretty quickly.

[Rob]

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[stevehj197]

Rob I think your perspectives are very interesting.... please continue to tell us any and everything you think is informative.

[Pego]

Well Rob, as a coach/official/team physician for voried Czechoslovak youth teams, my experience with the East Germans were a lot less cordial than what you describe. They behaved like übermensch, cheated right and left such as their team members would be evidently older than what the tournament would allow, sending their elite (sometimes national) teams disguised as club teams and so on. You are loyal to your friends, which is fine. You however see a different side of them than what the competitors within the Soviet block countries did. In one thread you mentioned that they "hated the Russians". So did we, but we hated the East German even more.

[Rob]

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[jhc68]

This is such an unusual discussion: people who actually know what they are talking about from first hand experience, points of view that encompass a broadly based perspective, logical ideas clearly expressed... bravo, and thanks!

[Pierre-Jean]

Jarmila is currently in Potchefstroom - South Africa with Ludmila Formanova for a training camp.
She and Marita Koch had cordial not to say friendly relationships, they used to mail each other for the new year until one lost the address of the other. They didn't met too often because they didn't like to lose, a race witht the 2 greatest 400m runners ever at their best shape would have been great in Los Angeles Games, even if it's unlikely as Jarmila wanted to concentrate on 800.

[Powell]

...and today is Jarmila Kratochvilova's 53rd birthday.

[misterp]

I saw Marita Koch run in Madison Square Garden in the 80s. Probably at Milrose, although I seen to recall that for a couple years the Garden put on two annual indoor meets. She was past her prime (slightly), but she demolished the field, and 20 years later I remember her powerful stride. It's terrific to hear that she's fit, still involved in sports, and doing well.

Today's NY Times has a nice obituary for Fanny Blankers-Koen and a long, scary article in the sports section on steroid use by East German athletes. Both are available at nytimes.com. I wonder if Marita or Sabine have been involved in any of the news reports in Germany on these issues, or if they have commented on them. Rob? Anyone?

And a tough question for prognosticators - whose record will fall first, and when: Marita's 47.6 or Jarmila's 1:53.28? (One reasonable prediction would be neither, ever.)

Thanks to all for a great thread.

[Rog]

Rob,

Thank you again for the wealth of knowledge you have brought to this discussion. Certainly I would be very happy to listen to your hours of talk about the GDR athletes' humanity.

For one thing, I'd love to know more about the rationale behind this acrimonious feeling between the GDR and USSR teams. They certainly had some great duels - think of the 1980 Olympic women's 4 x 400m, the unexpected loss of which surely was the reason behind Barbel Wockel's inclusion in the long relay the following year, 1981. Indeed, I seem to remember that at the end of the European Cup 4 x 400 the Soviet anchor, Irina Nazarova (who had held Marita Koch at bay in Moscow) approached the GDR team to congratulate them on their victory, but seemed to be blindsided by Kock, Wockel and Steuk, who had just won by a presumably satisfying margin of five seconds! Was the bad feeling just down to the unequal relationship between the leading country of the Communist Bloc and its satellite, or was there more behind it?

One other query, which I hope you don't find intrusive of me. If you don't mind my asking, in what capacity did you attend the 1985 GDR v UK meet? I'm wondering because, if you attended in an official capacity, or as an athlete, you would have had an excellent opportunity to compare first hand the differing approaches of the two teams. I remember reading a quotation from Thomas Wessinghage to the effect that the GDR squad seemed to have a strength of team spirit that had been lost in the West. My guess is that such a mood would have assisted in quelling any individual prima donna behaviour, since there may have been recognition that such actions would prove counter-productive to the overall team success. It would also have served to establish a foward momentum whereby the success of one athlete would have spurred the next on to achieve the same heights.

Another factor in this team spirit could be that whilst Fatima was one of only two or three genuine star athletes in the British women's team at the time, Petra Felke had such illustrious colleagues as Marlies Gohr, Marita Koch, Silke Gladisch, Sigrun Wodars, Sabine Busch, Heike Drechsler, Diana Sachse and Irina Meszynski - all on the same team at that meeting! How can you be a prima donna when being one of the all-time greats at your own particular event was almost the norm! Not surprisingly, the GDR won with almost double the points of the British team...

Rog

[Pierre-Jean]

And a tough question for prognosticators - whose record will
>fall first, and when: Marita's 47.6 or Jarmila's 1:53.28? (One reasonable
>prediction would be neither, ever.)


It's a tough question as nobody seems to be able to break these records today. Ana Guevara said in Paris that 47.60 WR is in her plans for the following years, and the other day, i red an interview about Sanya Richards saying she was looking fot it too. At least they don't put limits to their mind.

One thing is sure for me, Marita Koch was near to reach her best potential at 400 with 47.60, while Kratochvílová could have run 1sec faster than she did at 800m. The few 800 she ran in 1983 she didn't have any opposition at all, even at training it was surely hard to do it all by herself ofr the hardest cesisons, as Tatána Kocembová trained at lower volume and intensity. I think she was able to run faster than 47.99 in Helsinki too, after all these rounds it was just incredible, proably close to 47.60. Anyway, in Heslinki, her split time at 300m prevented her to run much faster than 47.99...
The previous year, even if Koch was supreme and deserved her European title, i have the feeling that Jarmila underperformed, she had to be better than in 1981, and not yet at her 1983 level, before the Athens European Champs she did 48.86 in Zürich was a too fast start, and did "only" 48.85 in Athens. For me, all indicators showed she was ready for around 48.30-48.40, i haven't found exactly why she didn't reach it in 1982. Maybe she did the mistake to wait for Koch who was in the lane behind her, but in the last straight it was too late, as Koch did a great last bend.

My answer for the original question is that the 800 WR will be broken first, but the woman who will do it will have to run cautiously the first 100, they run it too fast nowadays, and not reach the bell faster than 55.5.

[Pierre-Jean]

Anyway, those 2 trained much more than nowadays long sprinters, and competed less. Now, women compete more and thus train less. They can't do both, and also, i'm not sure that many of them could stand the amount of work the 2 great endured during more than a decade. Also, Koch ad Kratochvíová ran different races in order to prepare to their main event, as opposed to Guevara and Mutola, Koch did several 100 and 400 before an attempt at 400m, same for Kratochvílová and Pérec, or even Olizarenko.

[Pierre-Jean]

Anyway, those 2 trained much more than nowadays long sprinters, and competed less. Now, women compete more and thus train less. They can't do both, and also, i'm not sure that many of them could stand the amount of work the 2 great endured during more than a decade. Also, Koch ad Kratochvíová ran different races in order to prepare to their main event, as opposed to Guevara and Mutola, Koch did several 100 and 400 before an attempt at 400m, same for Kratochvílová and Pérec, or even Olizarenko.

[bf]

It won't happen, but Marion could beat 47.60, and Sanya could beat 1:53.28 if they went all out for it. $$$$$ would make it happen. Just one fan's view....

[Powell]

Kratochvilova may have been able to run faster than 1:53, but even as it, the record is WAY to tough for the current crop of runners. Many people speak about Mutola being able to do it, but IMO it's out of her reach. Few people realize just how hard it is to run 1:53... Of the two runners who have done it, Kretochvilova was a 47.99 400 runner, while Olizarenko ran both a sub-51 400 and a 3:56 1500 in the same year !!! Ana Quirot, the third fastest ever, again had sub-50 speed. That's the kind of credentials you need to get close to the WR. Neither Mutola nor anyone else currently running 800 has them. If anyone could get close, it's Guevara... if she trains for it.

[Rob]

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[Bruce Kritzler]

"Sanya (Richards?) could beat 1:53.28"?? That's a long way off.

[Rob]

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[tandfman]

>Personally I can't see Marita Koch's 400m WR being beaten in my lifetime - her 47.60 in Canberra was the single greatest track performance I have ever witnessed.<

I was there too, but I'd never call it the greatest performance I've ever witnessed, although I do agree that it is a very tough record to break. I don't rank it with some other great performances because there was some altitude assistance involved, and there was almost certainly some other assistance, given where she was from and how that country assisted in the training of its athletes during the 1980's.

[trackhead]

>>Personally I can't see Marita Koch's 400m WR being beaten in my lifetime - her
>47.60 in Canberra was the single greatest track performance I have ever
>witnessed.<

There was quite a bit of wind in Canberra's U-Shaped stadium. Koch passed 100m in 10.8 and 200m in the high 22s.

The single greatest performance I've ever witnessed on the track was Johnson's 19.32. That's one for the ages.

[Pierre-Jean]

I don't rank 47.60 with some other great performances because there was
>some altitude assistance involved, and there was almost certainly some other
>assistance, given where she was from and how that country assisted in the
>training of its athletes during the 1980's.


Marita Koch ran 47.60, that's more than 1 second and a half faster than the second best ever Est German (49.24). "Assistance" doesn't explain this gap. The fact she is coming from GDR don't imply she was more suspicious than if she came from USA, i'm not sure there were less "assisted" athletes in USA than in GDR during the '80s...

[Pierre-Jean]

It's interesting to note that Marita Koch, Kratochvilova's main rival, the one who was supposed to have worst feelings for her, was actually the one who was the most friendly with her. Kratochvilova wasn't very appreciated by the other sprinters when she competed, and Koch went to congratulate her after races. She often says that Koch was the reason she had such a long career, her aim was to beat her and her records, but there was respect between them.
On the other hand, Marlies Göhr wasn't friendly with Kratochvilova, never said hello or shook hands.
During a training camp in France, Chantal Réga asked Jarmila to give her her detailed training plans, Jarmila said OK, but the only condition is that you never give the plans to East Germans!

[Powell]

Also, Canberra is at 550 meters above sea level - that hardly constitutes significant altitude assistance (it's about the same as places like Zurich and Munich, which are low enough to have seen world records in long-distance races).

And she definitely did not run the first 100 in 10.8. I'm sure Pierre-Jean has the breakdown for it, but in any case I don't believe it was faster than 11.5.

[Pierre-Jean]

the first 100m was in no way run in 10.8.
Wolfgang Meier timed her in 11.0 with his stop watch, but i doubt he was sitting in front of the 100m point, and anyway, there were several lines in that area, and it's difficult to find it without taking a greta attention.
The accepted split time was 11.4, but from the video of the race, i found it was between 11.60 and 11.70. Which is still incredibly fast for a 400m!

[Rog]

Rob and Pierre-Jean,

I have the video of Marita Koch's world record, and her split times appear to be 11.6, 22.4 and 34.1.

Will anyone ever beat that record? No-one of the current generation I suspect, although I could see Ana Guevara beating Kratochvilova's 800m record. I agree that it is softer - Kratochvilova looked capable of sub-1:52, judging from her performance in the 1983 World Championship final, so it maybe isn't close to the ultimate in the same way that 47.60 is for 400m.

I think it will take another 400m runner with exceptional speed to break the record, some-one faster than the current generation of 200m runners for a start. Some-one with technique and cadence approaching Marita's, and the same combination of ability, dedication and coaching. That kind of phenomenon may only appear once in a lifetime, however the 400m has been such a barren event for so long (with the exception of Guevara) that eventually the situation has to change, however many years down the line. Even when it does happen, however, we will have the memory of that great run in Canberra to cherish. I agree with you, Rob, it's the greatest run I have ever seen (even if only on tape).

Incidentally, I checked the results of that guest 100m in 1985, and the British entry was rather starry - are you a past Olympian, by any chance? You don't appear to be Allan Wells' younger brother in any case!!!

Rog

[Rog]

I think Marita's split times on the way to her 47.60 were 11.6, 22.4 and 34.1.

I think the athlete with the best chance of breaking the world record for 400m and 800m is Ana Guevara, for both. I think she is strong enough to break 1:53.28, however I don't think she has the speed to break 47.60. I do think, though, that Jarmila was capable of sub 1:52 (based on her run in the 1983 Worlds 800m final), so maybe that record isn't so close to the ultimate as the shorter distance time is.

The athlete to surpass 47.60 will surely need Marita's combination of talent, technique, bravery, dedication, coaching and luck, and that kind of athlete doesn't come along very often. In the meantime, however, we have the memory of that great performance, which I agree is the best run I have ever seen, albeit on TV.

By the way, Rob, I have checked the results of that 1985 100m, and whilst you may not be Allan Wells' younger brother, that race contained a selection of rather starry British sprinters - were you an Olympian, by any chance?

Rog

[Rog]

The more attentive of you will note that I have posted two fairly similar messages above - this is because I appeared to have lost the first when my internet connection was lost, and didn't realise it had somehow got through until I posted the second one.

As it happens, those were the second and third messages I typed up - I lost the first (a real epic by comparison) when I tried to post and was instead greeted by a message about exception errors!

Apologies, I'm new around here...

Rog

[Rob]

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[Rog]

>Rog,

There were 2 guest 100 races held at the GB v GDR match in Birmingham,
>and I ran in the second. There were in any case some non-appearances in the
>first race, which should have contained Daley Thompson, Mike McFarlane, Cameron
>Sharp, Donovan Reid, Harry King and a few others, but some didn't show.
>Meanwhile there were a few of us other 'lesser mortals' around who were herded
>into another race. I must add that it was not the main (scoring) race with
>Christie and Emmelmann!

Rob

- Much to their relief, I'm sure!

Rog

[Rob]

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[Marg]

Dear Rob,
I read with great interest the comments in relation to the question. As a former nationally ranked middle distance runner in the 60's and early 70's, I have always wondered what has become of the athletes of my generation and those of the 80's. I discovered your message board whilst looking up information about Irena Szevinska and Jarmila. I was a great admirer of theirs and still marvel at their achievements.

I attended the World Cup meet in Canberra in 85
and had the priviledge to not only see Jarmila and Marita Koch in action in the 400m, but also watch Marita break the world record in emphatic style. Her techique was awesome and powerful-she made it look so easy. Unfortunately, Jarmila seemed past her prime and struggled with the pace. I have a wonderful set of enlarged photos which I shot at various stages of the race as a lasting memory.

The GDR team also broke the Women's 4x100m relay record, so witnessing two world records in one day was the icing on the cake! After the meet, I met Marlies Gohr and congratulated her. I would have liked to have had a chat, but the language barrier was a bit too much for us!

I still have copies of old track and field magazines which contain articles and interviews about Marita and Jarmila.

It was sad to see the passing of such a great athlete as Fanny Blankers-Koen. Australia lost one of our greatest-ever athletes when the much loved Shirley Strickland-Delahunty passed away two weeks ago. We will never see the likes of that generation of champions again.

Thank you for initiating this engaging dialogue and sharing your knowledge and insights with us.

Marg, Australia