I was looking at the 800 WR progression list and was amazed that the WR has been lowered only nine times since 1939. The stats for other middle/distance events (the sprints data is less relevant because of Mexico City and the hand-timing ----> auto timing thing):
1500...23 WR lowerings
Steeple...16
5K....30
10K....29
The 100 has had 10 just in the last 20 years, the field events have had bunches over the last 68 years.
May not be news to most out there, but it did surprise me.
1.46,6 Rudolf Harbig GER Milan 15.07.1939
1.45,7 Roger Moens BEL Oslo 03.08.1955
1.44,3 Peter Snell NZL Christchurch 03.02.1962
...........Ralph Doubell AUS Mexico City 15.10.1968
...........David Wottle USA Eugene 01.07.1972
1.43,7 Marcello Fiasconaro ITA Milan 27.06.1973
1.43,50 Alberto Juantorena CUB Montreal 25.07.1976
1.43,44 Juantorena CUB Sofia 21.08.1977
1.42,33 Sebastian Coe GBR Oslo 05.07.1979
1.41,73 Coe GBR Firenze 10.06.1981
...........Wilson Kipketer DEN Stockholm 07.07.1997
1.41,24 Kipketer DEN Zurich 13.08.1997
1.41,11 Kipketer DEN Cologne 24.08.1997
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Aren ... dex_s.html
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More 800 dissing. Only 9 WR in 68 yearsMore 800 dissing. Only 9 WR in 68 years
Last edited by DrJay on Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So . . . are you dissing the event? Or just bringing to light an observation?
It's not really exciting until someone comes along to dominate it. Or if some big names at other distances take a shot at it. I always wished MJ would have tried it later in his career.
I'm stating the obvious here, but the numerical paucity has been caused to a great extent by the superlative breakthroughs of Harbig, Moens, Snell, and Coe, plus WW2 right after Harbig's run. They all took big hunks off the existing wr.
Last edited by dukehjsteve on Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The homestretch in Osaka was the most exciting WC 800 finish ever; perhaps as exciting as any 800 ever run.
Re: More 800 dissing. Only 9 WR in 68 years
coe did kill it off for a long time maybe a nice progression wouda been -caballo 1'43.4 -coe 1'43.2... & then 4 or more 5 small improvements to get to 1'41.7, but he pretty much destroyed anyone's chances of being a wr-holder by going 1'42.4 & then 1'41.7 in 2 goes !
The 800 may be the most difficult event to run (perhaps matched only by the 400 hurdles). It is the most painful combination of speed and endurance. Most runners tend toward either speed or endurance dominance, but the 800 balances both, so it's a painful reach up for a 400 runner, and the 1500 runners have to run faster than what is comfortable. For a lot of 1500 runners a sub 50 quarter is all out--but that's just the opening lap in the 800. So, this is a long winded way of saying that the pool of 800 runners might be smaller than for the 400 and 1500.
It took 16 years to lower Harbig's time- what was the record before him? Had he run slower, but still under the world record, there may have been more records between 39 and 55, although the war did put a damper on things, especially in Europe.
Never hurdled. And I'm not bragging, but I did compete at a regional high school level for four years. But anyway, I used to think the 800 was the most painful. But the better I got at the mile convinced me that it felt worse.
I still say that looking at human physiology, man evolved to EITHER sprint at high speed, or run for a long distance, but not both! The 800 should be eliminated as being not conducive to outstanding human performance!!!
Harbig's 1:46.6 in 1939 smashed the prior record from the year before ( 1938) of 1:48.4 by Sydney Wooderson. And that record itself was only a year old, as in 1937 Elroy Robinson ran 1:49.6 ( that's correct ! ) for a wr. Broke Glenn Cunningham's record from the year before that by .1. So in a mere 2 years the record went down 3 seconds !
1.52,8 Melvin E. Sheppard USA London 21.07.1908) 1.51,9 James E. Meredith USA Stockholm 08.07.1912 1.51,6 Otto Peltzer GER London 03.07.1926 1.50,6 Séra Martin FRA Colombes 14.07.1928 1.49,8 Thomas Hampson GBR Los Angeles 02.08.1932 ...........Benjamin Eastman USA Princeton 16.06.1934 1.49,7 Glenn Cunningham USA Stockholm 20.08.1936 1.49,6 Elroy Robinson USA New York 11.07.1937 1.48,4 Sydney Wooderson GBR Motspur Park 20.08.1938 1.46,6 Rudolf Harbig GER Milan 15.07.1939
Very true. I think the psychology of the sprinter vs. distance runner is also a problem. How do you combine both? It is a very rare individual who can excel at the 8. And those who can usually opt for the glamour of the 4 or 15. For all of the above reasons is why the 8 is so fascinating.
Re: More 800 dissing. Only 9 WR in 68 years
There are two (perhaps related) issues, here. As others have said, the massive advances of Harbig, Snell, and Coe effectively negated numerous other "natural" WR improvements (like Beamon's LJ). On this subject, it's interesting to note the 880y record progression. While the 800m record was improved ONCE from Harbig (1939) to Moens (1955), the half mile was tied or broken 4 times (or 5, depending on how you count them) in that period, a much more "normal" pace of progression. There are also a few performances that should be on that list: Ryun's 1:44.9 880 of 1966 would have at least merited a "tie" on the 800 list if the race had been officially timed at that distance and Wohlhuter's 1:44.6 880 of '73 and 1:44.1 of '74 were both better than the standing 800 records at the time. Factoring these into the overall chronology makes the record progression look slightly more "normal." That said, at least a few of us have been saying/speculating for years that the 800 seems to represent a unique physiological problem: the distance perhaps most resistant to technical or PED-type improvements. Harbig's 1:46.6 from 1939 is still a world-class time (if just barely); Snell's 1:44.3 of 1962 clearly is.
It's Adam and Eve! Not Adam and Ste- wait a sec. Oh, sorry. This is a different one. Let's see . . . It's Adam and Eve! Not Adam and . . . uh . . . Adam and . . . wait, wait . . . uh . . . monkeys! Ooooh yeah!! Still undefeated as an apologist! 8)
Sorry, but when you say to me "exciting 800 finishes" I think immediately of the '56 and '72 OG, and the '82 ECh. With some thought, I'd probably come up with some others. The '88 OG 800 wasn't too shabby either.
Uhm, if we are going by Genesis to determine our events, I guess the only one that should be included in the OG is Bobbing for Apples!!! Believe it or not, but track and field trace roots to the non-judaic history of the Greeks, so whatever the over-quoted story book says should be considered immaterial in these discussions. 
worth noting in the 400/1500 debate, that often the best 1500 men don't fully concentrate on the 800 ( perhaps because 1500 is "glory" event ), which woud make a substantial difference to all-time list ( maybe not affect wr list that much )
- ryun in '67 : = 800 wr in '66 : he was bigger, stronger & certainly capable of demolishing his 1'44.3 in '67 - pekka in '72 ran high-1'44, when wr was still 1'44.3 - not unreasonable to think if he was a full-time 800 guy, the wr wouda been under threat - ovett in '78 ran 1'44-flat ( losing to beyer's 1'43.8 ) - ovett had shifted focus from 800 to 1500 in '77, but you gotta feel that if he'd stayed exclusively at 800 for another coupla seasons after '76, you'd be looking at close to 1'43-flat in '78 - cram : ran 1'42.8 when beating cruz, but 1500 was his main focus - he was capable of 1'42.5 that day & maybe even nearer the 1'42-flat end if he'd stuck exclusively to the 800 - aouita ran 1'43.8 in '88 when well past his '85 peak - trained only for 800 in '85 & i'm sure he'd have got 1'43-flat - elliot 1'42.9 in '90 by which time he was a 1500 runner ( silver in '88 ) - el g & bernie : 3'26's & ran no 800s at their peak : at least low 1'43s were possible ( & into the 1'42s if only 800 guys ) - noah : 3'43, og gold & 2'11.9 - he musta been capable of mid-1'42 just off those & if exclusively an 800 guy, again, close to 1'42-flat also worth noting, the list of 1'42 guys does contain a lot of no-name africans, who were exclusively 800 guys & got top quality races, whereas arguably the 2 best kenyans, ereng & konchellah ( coe reckoned the latter was the guy to threaten his wr after he saw his '87 win ) never cracked 1'43 ! the talent of those 2 was far superior to those no-names, so illness/injury & lack of top-class 800 races on the circuit may also have a role in the "oddness" of the 800 alltime list
I think my above argument was poignant, articulate, and utterly inspired. You're just intimidated by my depth of thought and the power of my communication. 8)
That's definitely it! 
I think you are probably describing your own reaction to my post through some form of projection and transference. Ah, the ways the human psyche uses to trick us into believing so many things! 
Now you're talking witchcraft?! 
No, I'm talking psychology. That is a science that studies the workings of the human mind and helps explain how some people come to believe in things like witchcraft and ancient lore compiled into a brick of a book.... 
For some perspective, after Jesse Owens, the WR has changed only minimally since with a singular exception and the minimally might have been even more minimal if JO had gotten off a jump he was capable of (27++)..
applying that to the 800 : - snell's 1'44.3 was on grass - gotta believe that musta been worth no worse than 1'43-flat on a synthetic - ryun at 19y ran -ve splits for 1'44.3 on a primitive synthetic track & was significantly better the following year, but didn't seem to have a top-class 800 that year - that has to be well below 1'43 on a modern synthetic track with an ~50s 1st lap in his peak year so you're probably talking mid-1'42 in the '60s we haven't got much faster since then...
Now you're talking about the Masons? 
It seems that this is the case now more than 20-30 years ago, Ryun, Coe, Ovett, Cram would run many 8s. El G. didn't really run any. Of course, he could have done very well had he given it a decent shot. We see what Webb was able to do when he decided to give it a serious effort. It is quite possible he can knock a second off in the next couple of years if he gives it a bit more attention. The same with the 4. While the 8 was never something 400 meter guys gave much thought to, some may have excelled have they given it an honest chance. One guy did and we know how well he ended up doing. The 8 is painful, requires serious training and ability and the pay-off isn't as large as it in the 4/15.
since '70 we've had ~ 1/2 dozen guys competitive at 800/1500 since '70 we've had 1 guy competitive at 400/800 ( albeit he broke the 800m wr which snell/ryun/kipkurgat wouda buried into the 1'42s on synthetic tracks/proper pacing ) these ratios don't favour the 400/800 guy at all
But we've also had at least one gal as well, and she remains the WR holder at 800m.
Try the 84 OTs which required TWO photofinishes!!
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