....with this blacks and speed trip, is in trying to deal with those who for some reason simply refuse to believe what their eyes are telling them. Why they play this is what intriques me.
Who here didn't watch Vince Young do things no white QB has ever done? Who didn't see Reggie Bush turn that corner like no white back ever has? Why pretend you aren't seeing this? Look at Matt Leinart. He's your basic great white QB. At the NCAA level. Now look at Virg Tech, Ohio State, Penn State, Georgia and LSU.Do they not all have speedy black QB's? Why are we not seeing speedy white QB's? Where are the white Reggie Bush's?
Why do so many struggle with this? What is so hard about trusting in what you are seeing? I grew up surrounded by great black athletes. I didn't try to pretend it was any other way. Why would I want to ignore the obvious? I grew up in central Cali. An area of the country that has given the track world....
Tommie Smith
Leamon King
Larance Jones
Randy Williams
Lee Evans
Rafer Johnson
George Gaffney
Steve Campbell
Sam Davis
Jerry White
Bob Mathias
Phil Reeves
Marqus Holiwell
Maxie Parks
Joel Andrews
Bill Cowings
James Stallworth
Darel Newman
Only Newman and Mathias being white. I could list a ton of guys like Milton Russell who was running 9.9's in high school, that did nothing afterwards. Bill Cowings twice won state in the 100 then went to Texas So...poof !
There are no ghetto's around here to escape from. This is farm land. These black athletes aren't getting any special kind of training. It's not .."ok blacks over here!"
Let me tell ya about Leroy Russell, the younger brother of Milton. The guy was about 5-6 and built like a mini Mr.Olympia. Muscle on top of muscle. Never lifted a day in his life. He smoked and drank in high school. The guy could out run anyone on the track team. He couldn't participate because he rarely attended school. The guy was simply a "natural". The coachs out at COS the local JC, did everything they could to get him in school. Nope he just didn't care. Who here doesn't know a Leroy Russell?
I was just a freshman on the track team when we headed to Bakersfield for the valley championships. Edison of Fresno had Sam Davis who was "da man" in the northern half of the valley. Roger Jones was the king of the southern valley, he was out of one of the Bakersfield schools. Yep just like an old west shoot out. Who was the fastest! Davis cruised thru his heat, as did Jones. Both winning a semi. Now the stage is set! Davis would win it then head off to Fresno City and then on to San Jose State where he ran on those great 4x1 teams. Of course Davis and Jones were black. Then there was Leamon King vs James Jackson in the Cal state 100 in 55 or was it 54? Need I go on?
There is a reason Jamaica/Trinidad have the sprint prowess they have had. It's not about culture, training, escaping ghetto life. It's all in "physical make up".....trust me!
Don't be foolish and tell me they aren't different physiques out there. What you've never seen a Samoan or a Filipino? Asians aren't built differently than Mexicans? Sure they are! It's these "physical differences" that gives blacks the edge in speed related athlectic events. Why fight it?
I was watching ESPN trying everything they could to talk around the obvious, when they were comparing the 1952 Oklahoma team to USC. That Okie team was all white. No way they could say..."no way those white boys could run with Reggie,LenDale and company"......too bad we have to live in a fantasy world about something soooooooooo obvious. Why not tell it like it is?
I'm simply curious why people try to battle something so damn ovious, it's comical.
Last edited by Brutal on Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rob wrote:You won't hear any disagreement from me Brutal.
But that's why, when a white sprinter does come along every decade or so, who can prevail in spite of such natural 'disadvantages', then he must be very special indeed, and certainly worth watching out for.
Morrow - Hary - Borzov - Wells...
Who's next? (and when?????)
Craig Pickering? But there's been way too many impressive young white Brits who never kicked on, for whatever reason....
Rob wrote:You won't hear any disagreement from me Brutal.
But that's why, when a white sprinter does come along every decade or so, who can prevail in spite of such natural 'disadvantages', then he must be very special indeed, and certainly worth watching out for.
Morrow - Hary - Borzov - Wells...
Who's next? (and when?????)
Let's look at that list.
Jim Golliday was every bit as good as Bobby Morrow in the 50's. He was hurt in both 52 and 56.
Ray Norton was the "da man" in 1960. For some reason he totally bombed.
Eddie Hart vs Borzov?
No Americans there when Wells won his.
I think we have to go back to the 40's and Hal Davis to find a truly dominant white sprinter. Proir to that, yes whites more than held their own.
he was the fastest sprinter the school had ever had ( never lost a race in school competition ), even ran x-country ( no training ) & it took 2 webb-lookalikes ( bald short-asses ) to finally grind him down over a gruelling 3 mile, muddy course
he was centre-forward ( & captain ) in soccer ( the best player who ever played for the school ) - had ball control of a maradona & the generalship of a pele & had the kicking power of a roberto carlos , captain of the cricket team - he bowled like the north wind - michael holding had nothing on him in terms of run-up or speed of delivery ( i ran to the other end when batting, when he was thrown the ball to bowl ) & he batted in a way that wouda put garfield sobers to shame
he did this off no training
shame was, he didn't pursue it after school & one day, years later ( when i bumped into him whilst he was dragging his 4 kidz along with him ), the reason was obvious - at 6'5 & 220 pound, without ever doing a days w.-training in his life, it was obvious that he didn't have the physical stature to be a top sportsman
this man couda been og 100/200 champ, played in world cup soccer, played test cricket ( & of course, his favorite sport was basketball ! ) & he was spending his life pushing a buggy !
i'd have to say that a lotta this "black" thing is hogwash - there are a helluva lot better ones who never even bothered to go into pro sports
He didn't face the top two Americans in 72 and if Larry Black hadn't of been in that tight lane 1 in the 200...? Look at 76 when he ran that same 10.14 and came in third. I saw Robert Taylor smoke him on the anchor of a 4x1 with them starting off even. I don't think "dominant" at all when I think of Borzov. Hal Davis went 4 years and lost something like two races. Setting WR's. That's dominance!
Last edited by Brutal on Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
eldrick wrote:when i was a kid, we had a jamaican guy at school
he was the fastest sprinter the school had ever had ( never lost a race in school competition ), even ran x-country ( no training ) & it took 2 webb-lookalikes ( bald short-asses ) to finally grind him down over a gruelling 3 mile, muddy course
he was centre-forward ( & captain ) in soccer ( the best player who ever played for the school ) - had ball control of a maradona & the generalship of a pele & had the kicking power of a roberto carlos , captain of the cricket team - he bowled like the north wind - michael holding had nothing on him in terms of run-up or speed of delivery ( i ran to the other end when batting, when he was thrown the ball to bowl ) & he batted in a way that wouda put garfield sobers to shame
he did this off no training
shame was, he didn't pursue it after school & one day, years later ( when i bumped into him whilst he was dragging his 4 kidz along with him ), the reason was obvious - at 6'5 & 220 pound, without ever doing a days w.-training in his life, it was obvious that he didn't have the physical stature to be a top sportsman
this man couda been og 100/200 champ, played in world cup soccer, played test cricket ( & of course, his favorite sport was basketball ! ) & he was spending his life pushing a buggy !
i'd have to say that a lotta this "black" thing is hogwash - there are a helluva lot better ones who never even bothered to go into pro sports
Couldn't be more wrong! So ya knew "one" great athlete....big deal!
He didn't face the top two Americans in 72 and if Larry Black hadn't of been in that tight lane 1 in the 200...? Look at 76 when he ran that same 10.14 and came in third. I saw Robert Taylor smoke him on the anchor of a 4x1 with them starting off even. I don't think "dominant" at all when I think of Borzov. Hal Davis went 4 years and lost something like two races. Setting WR's. That's dominance!
20.00 at low altitude easing down, is a wr in anyone's book !!!
eldrick wrote:when i was a kid, we had a jamaican guy at school
he was the fastest sprinter the school had ever had ( never lost a race in school competition ), even ran x-country ( no training ) & it took 2 webb-lookalikes ( bald short-asses ) to finally grind him down over a gruelling 3 mile, muddy course
he was centre-forward ( & captain ) in soccer ( the best player who ever played for the school ) - had ball control of a maradona & the generalship of a pele & had the kicking power of a roberto carlos , captain of the cricket team - he bowled like the north wind - michael holding had nothing on him in terms of run-up or speed of delivery ( i ran to the other end when batting, when he was thrown the ball to bowl ) & he batted in a way that wouda put garfield sobers to shame
he did this off no training
shame was, he didn't pursue it after school & one day, years later ( when i bumped into him whilst he was dragging his 4 kidz along with him ), the reason was obvious - at 6'5 & 220 pound, without ever doing a days w.-training in his life, it was obvious that he didn't have the physical stature to be a top sportsman
this man couda been og 100/200 champ, played in world cup soccer, played test cricket ( & of course, his favorite sport was basketball ! ) & he was spending his life pushing a buggy !
i'd have to say that a lotta this "black" thing is hogwash - there are a helluva lot better ones who never even bothered to go into pro sports
Couldn't be more wrong! So ya knew "one" great athlete....big deal!
i didn't mention his younger, "bigger" brothers who were still living in jamaica with his father
.... :roll: There's ya last dominant white sprinter.....
I disagree.
He didn't face the top two Americans in 72 and if Larry Black hadn't of been in that tight lane 1 in the 200...? Look at 76 when he ran that same 10.14 and came in third. I saw Robert Taylor smoke him on the anchor of a 4x1 with them starting off even. I don't think "dominant" at all when I think of Borzov. Hal Davis went 4 years and lost something like two races. Setting WR's. That's dominance!
I diSagree. I just may have written a sentence or two on this theme before....
But to summarise, again...
Borzov was unbeaten for 2 years before Munich.
Neither Hart or Robinson had shown 10.07 ability.
Borzov's 20.00 at Munich was an amazing achievement, probably would have gone sub 20 if he hadn't celebrated, and therefore had the top 2 all-time 200s at sea-level (I know Munich is a little elevated) with FAT.
He didn't face the top two Americans in 72 and if Larry Black hadn't of been in that tight lane 1 in the 200...? Look at 76 when he ran that same 10.14 and came in third. I saw Robert Taylor smoke him on the anchor of a 4x1 with them starting off even. I don't think "dominant" at all when I think of Borzov. Hal Davis went 4 years and lost something like two races. Setting WR's. That's dominance!
I diSagree. I just may have written a sentence or two on this theme before.... But to summarise, again...
Borzov was unbeaten for 2 years before Munich.
Neither Hart or Robinson had shown 10.07 ability.
Borzov's 20.00 at Munich was an amazing achievement, probably would have gone sub 20 if he hadn't celebrated, and therefore had the top 2 all-time 200s at sea-level (I know Munich is a little elevated) with FAT.
And Rob can give you even more reasons!
Both Hart and Robinson had ran WR 9.9's.
Who was Borzos beating those two years before Munich?
I'm not sold on Borzov beating Black , all things being equal. Black had 9.3 speed and could run a sub 45.00 relay leg. So he had speed and endurance.
Rob wrote:I didn't think anyone would question Borzov's dominance in the early 70s - it is perfectly acceptable for black Americans to support their own, in a ritualistic sort of way, but when they don't have the graciousness to acknowledge the mastery of someone who is not of their own, then that smacks of jealousy and fear...
English-Rob: What do you know about black American culture?
Rob wrote:Brutal, do you seriously think Lane 1 in Munich provides a 0.2 (or more) disadvantage? Black was good, and he was leading Borzov coming out of the curve, so surely at that point his 400m speed endurance should have handed him the race on a plate?
But it didn't happen. Borzov went from 1m down to 2m up in the home straight - simply because he was the superior sprinter in the world at that time. Black couldn't do a damn thing about it. Neither could anyone else.
Usually I 'll put on the armor, grab my shield and trusty blade and go to battle over this.I don't want this thread going off on this Borzov vs the black sprint world trip however. Yes he was good, yes he didn't face two WR holders in 72 and yes lane one is a big disadvantage to any sprinter. Why isn't anyone talking about 76?
Yes there are a handful of great white sprinters. Hell who doesn't know that? My point is they are very very rare. Sprinting is a black thing. For every Valery Borzov or Bobby Morrow there are a 100 Bob Hayes,Jimmy Hines,Tommie Smith,Henry Carr, Jesse Owens,Carl Lewis etc etec etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.........
Rob wrote:I didn't think anyone would question Borzov's dominance in the early 70s - it is perfectly acceptable for black Americans to support their own, in a ritualistic sort of way, but when they don't have the graciousness to acknowledge the mastery of someone who is not of their own, then that smacks of jealousy and fear - two characteristics that Borzov instilled into all the world's sprinters in the 1970s - including the black Americans, whom he beat six times out of six in the run-up to Munich.
It seems that some people will always go looking for excuses with Borzov's ability, simply because he doesn't fit in with their nice little view of 'black is best'...which is what made him such a great sprinter. He came along after the likes of Hayes, Hines and Smith, at a time (pretty much like now) when the US thought it owned the 100m....and he destroyed everyone who lined up against him - both in Europe and on the Americans' home territory (remember Berkeley?). Enough said.
Wells was good enough to win the Golden Sprints in Berlin, when the Americans who would have been trying to get to Moscow were present. He beat them fair and square. In the period before and after Moscow, he beat Sanford, Lattany and Floyd. Is there anyone else who might have challenged him, should you boys have bothered showing up in the Lenin Stadium that summer?
Floyd was the top ranked 100 man in the world in 1980, and yes he beat Wells!
Brutal wrote:Sprinting is a black thing. For every Valery Borzov or Bobby Morrow there are a 100 Bob Hayes,Jimmy Hines,Tommie Smith,Henry Carr, Jesse Owens,Carl Lewis etc etec etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.........
If sprinting is a "black thing", then why do we (Swedes, that is) have such high hopes that Johan Wissman will break through and make an international final? We are in this for the joy of competition... bettering onself and bringing all they can to the line. He who has the best on the day of the final is declared the champion, black or not. If Wissman never sets a WR, nor wins a championship gold, I don:t care. I appreciate him trying his best - as my national 200m-record-holder, and laying it out for others behind him to follow, black-Swede, green-Swede or anything in between.
Rob wrote:Brutal, do you seriously think Lane 1 in Munich provides a 0.2 (or more) disadvantage? Black was good, and he was leading Borzov coming out of the curve, so surely at that point his 400m speed endurance should have handed him the race on a plate?
But it didn't happen. Borzov went from 1m down to 2m up in the home straight - simply because he was the superior sprinter in the world at that time. Black couldn't do a damn thing about it. Neither could anyone else.
Usually I 'll put on the armor, grab my shield and trusty blade and go to battle over this.I don't want this thread going off on this Borzov vs the black sprint world trip however. Yes he was good, yes he didn't face two WR holders in 72 and yes lane one is a big disadvantage to any sprinter. Why isn't anyone talking about 76?
Yes there are a handful of great white sprinters. Hell who doesn't know that? My point is they are very very rare. Sprinting is a black thing. For every Valery Borzov or Bobby Morrow there are a 100 Bob Hayes,Jimmy Hines,Tommie Smith,Henry Carr, Jesse Owens,Carl Lewis etc etec etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.........
My last words here.... I'd be amazed if either Hart's or Robinson's 9.9s were sub 10.10 with FAT (didn't Steve Williams run a ratified 9.8 that was FATd at 10.19?).
Borzov wasn't the same sprinter in 76 as 72, but he was still good enough to beat the Americans (Williams and McTear injured, yadda yadda). Crawford finally put everything together (quickest in every round, IMS), and Quarrie was probably at his peak.
Borzov was the first sprinter to even attempt a 100m OG defence since 32. Did alright, if you ask me.....
Rob wrote:Again, I don't disagree that the number of black sprinters of a given standard is much greater than the number of white sprinters, and I don't buy all this 'cultural difference' or 'social expectation' or any other PC crap - it's simple genetics and physiology: Blacks are generally better at the sprints. This is the most obvious statement in sport, so I don't know why some people try to encapsulate it into something it isn't, or look for reasons that are politically correct, because it just doesn't work.
But at least you accept that there have been a handful of great white sprinters - obvious exceptions to the norm - who were world beaters during periods when black sprinters were themselves performing well.
I don't think we need to take this any further, execpt to wonder when the next one will come along.
I'm well aware of.....
Charlie Paddock
Jackson Schotz
Mel Patton
Roland Locke
Frank Wykoff
Dave Sime
Bobby Morrow
Bill Woodhouse
Fred Kuller
Ben Vaughn
Gerry Ashworth
Jerry Bright
Doug Hawken
Ralph Wise
Kevin Little
Tom Jones
Marty Kruelee
Rocky Woods
John Roderick
Larry Questad
Tom Scavuzzo
Mike Miller
Mark Lutz
Payton Jordan
Monty Ledbetter
Darel Newman
Dean Smith
Lindy Remigino
John Garrison
Dennis Schultz
All national caliber white sprinters. The problem is that took all of three minutes.
Last edited by Brutal on Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
Brutal wrote:Sprinting is a black thing. For every Valery Borzov or Bobby Morrow there are a 100 Bob Hayes,Jimmy Hines,Tommie Smith,Henry Carr, Jesse Owens,Carl Lewis etc etec etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.........
If sprinting is a "black thing", then why do we (Swedes, that is) have such high hopes that Johan Wissman will break through and make an international final? We are in this for the joy of competition... bettering onself and bringing all they can to the line. He who has the best on the day of the final is declared the champion, black or not. If Wissman never sets a WR, nor wins a championship gold, I don:t care. I appreciate him trying his best - as my national 200m-record-holder, and laying it out for others behind him to follow, black-Swede, green-Swede or anything in between.
Talk to me about why nobody other than black athletes run sub10.00's? Why are all the WR sprint records held by black athletes? Why do we have to go back to 1972 (80 doesn't count) to find a white sprinter winning the Oly 100? Here in the USA we have to go back to 1964 to find a white sprinter on our Oly 4x1 team. That being Gerry Ashworth.
Last edited by Brutal on Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rob wrote:EPelle, maybe you misunderstood (intentionally?).
Whenever one type of people / class / race do well in something, there is often an unwillingness for them to accept that anyone from outside their 'community' can perform to the same level. They feel they have a monopoly on said activity - and this is not restricted to any particular sector of the world's population...
My only intentional statement here is this: You misunderstand Swedes. Sure, like everyone else we love our stars, and we LOVE our stars to death.
However, without competition, our stars would not be complete athletes. For every Klüft, Holm, Olsson and Bergqvist at the top, I hope - and expect - that there is a Barber, Oprea, Rybakov and Howard (and/or Chicherova) right there to challenge - and, sometimes, WIN.
Vern wrote:Borzov was the first sprinter to even attempt a 100m OG defence since 32.
that is without doubt, the most interesting comment i have heard in a long time !
interestingly, did 200 champs defend ?
Eees true...
No 200 champ ever defended his title. In the "modern" era, I can think of Berutti, Quarrie, Mennea, Lewis and Marsh who all made the final 4 years later. 5th, 3rd, 7th, 2nd and 8th respectively.
Rob wrote:Stanley Floyd in Moscow would have been like Harvey Glance in Montreal - great talent and great expectations, but come the final his lack of maturity and lack of confidence would have seen him getting psyched-out in the pre-race rituals.
Lattany was no medal contender in 80, but Sanford would have been a handful.
We don't know anything about what Floyd does in that situation. Why pretend ya do?
Brutal, I can:t answer for all black WR sprinters, but I can account for the one with the 200m, 400m and 4x400m records - as well as the WB in the 300m, Michael Johnson:
ESPN reported it best:
"He is a man with nothing in his personal life to distract him, nothing in his emotional makeup to undermine him; in short there is nothing controllable that he will fail to control," wrote Gary Smith in Sports Illustrated. "He is an arrow shaved of all superfluity, feathered strictly for aerodynamics, drawn and discharged with the barest expenditure of motion, an arrow streaming nowhere except to its target."Link.
EPelle wrote:Brutal, I can:t answer for all black WR sprinters, but I can account for the one with the 200m, 400m and 4x400m records - as well as the WB in the 300m, Michael Johnson:
ESPN reported it best:
"He is a man with nothing in his personal life to distract him, nothing in his emotional makeup to undermine him; in short there is nothing controllable that he will fail to control," wrote Gary Smith in Sports Illustrated. "He is an arrow shaved of all superfluity, feathered strictly for aerodynamics, drawn and discharged with the barest expenditure of motion, an arrow streaming nowhere except to its target."Link.
I just find it ridiculous how something so damn obvious can get anything other than a..."yep when it comes to them old blues and sprinting, it's a black thang"......hell how obvious does it have to be? There are no white Howlin' Wolf's and no white Mo Greene's. Simply one of life's little realities.
A "black thang"... how do I get some of that? I want to sprint as fast as the Americans. Come out of 400m retirement and drop my PB down from 47 seconds to 44 seconds. Is it purely the genes that keeps me from being world class like the Americans?
There's ya last dominant white sprinter.....