Jarmila Kratochvilova

[Rog]

This thread would be a lot more interesting if it could rise above the level of drug bitching.

Why not be constructive about Kratochvilova? I think her greatest achievement, among many, was her 1:54.68 800 win in WC83 just 34 minutes after her 400 semi (51.08), despite less than ideal pacing (roughly 27/30/30/27). I think that suggests the potential for sub 1:52 over 800 metres - what does anyone else think?

[No Name]

"her 1:54.68 800 win in WC83 just 34 minutes after her 400 semi (51.08), despite less than ideal pacing (roughly 27/30/30/27). I think that suggests the potential for sub 1:52 over 800 metres - what does anyone else think?"


Hard to support that as she never came close to sub-1:52 even under the most ideal conditions. Additionally, a 51.08 quarter for her was probably not much of an effort (imagine Michael Johnson running 46-something at his peak). Still, few runners ever reach their *full* potential, so it's hard to say how fast she could have gone in a "perfect" race.

[slowcoach]

>I think that suggests the potential for sub 1:52 over 800 metres what does anyone else think?

I think that 1:53 was at the lower end of her ability, based on 48 for 4. Had she applied herself more (1:53 isn't applying yourself??) 1:50 was a possibility.

[Powell]

I tend to agree with Rob on this. Even if 51.08 wasn't that much of an effort for her, when we're talking about racing again half an hour later (according to the WCh stats handbook it was exactly 33:27.5) it must have had an impact.
The fact that she never actually approached 1:52 IMO was because she ran so few 800s in 1983 and, as it was her first year at this event, I think she had some problems getting the pace right. In later years she just never approached this kind of form again. 1:50, though, doesn't sound realistic.

[Pierre-Jean]

She had no problem with pacing, actually she was a 800m runner too in the mid70's. She was a fan of even splits at 800m. In Helsinki, it was a tactical race for her. 1:50 is not realist, however 1:52 without problem if she had someone to push her.

[Rog]

>I tend to agree with Rob on this.

Rog!

[Powell]

Sorry bout that - of course I meant your post. I also don't see why any mention of JK or Marita Koch immediately has to degenerate into drug slurs, while the discussion of the likes of Mary Slaney and Randy Barnes doesn't.

[Rog]

No sweat Powell, easy mistake to make.

Given the level of drug use in the sport over the last decades, and the probability that detection/evasion of usage may just be a matter of luck, I don't think it is worthwhile to waste time on speculation in this area. I do dislike the scapegoating that goes on, taking potshots at easy targets like the old Eastern Bloc's athletes and the likes of FloJo who can't defend themselves. That's why it's more refreshing to me to be positive and constructive, and Kratochvilova is an ideal focus for this approach because even though she has held the world record over 800 for 22 years, it clearly was unrepresentative of her optimal performance that year - I think a combination of 55/57 or even 56/56 laps would have been quite possible, with or without serious competition, had the opportunity presented itself. Anyone who hasn't seen that Helsinki race should try to do so, because she just looks a different class.

[No Name]

"Sorry bout that - of course I meant your post. I also don't see why any mention of JK or Marita Koch immediately has to degenerate into drug slurs, while the discussion of the likes of Mary Slaney and Randy Barnes doesn't."


I, for one, am happy to throw those two under the bus as well, as well as any other Americans that used PEDs. Doesn't excuse anything the Eastern Bloc athletes did, though.

[Powell]

>I, for one, am happy to throw those two under the bus as well,
>as well as any other Americans that used PEDs. Doesn't excuse anything the
>Eastern Bloc athletes did, though.

My point is there are discussion going on right now on this board about Slaney (the one about American all-time lists in women's middle distances) and Barnes (the shot WR thread) and they stay on track without anyone barging in with the drugs angle. Yet it seems impossible to have a discussion about any East European athlete without having to get through the same old crap. If some of you guys aren't interested in discussing anything about Kratochvilova apart from drugs allegations, could you please start your own thread and stay out of this one?

[Vern]

>>I, for one, am happy to throw those two under the bus as well,
>as well as
>any other Americans that used PEDs. Doesn't excuse anything the
>Eastern Bloc
>athletes did, though.

My point is there are discussion going on right now on
>this board about Slaney (the one about American all-time lists in women's
>middle distances) and Barnes (the shot WR thread) and they stay on track
>without anyone barging in with the drugs angle. Yet it seems impossible to have
>a discussion about any East European athlete without having to get through the
>same old crap. If some of you guys aren't interested in discussing anything
>about Kratochvilova apart from drugs allegations, could you please start your
>own thread and stay out of this one?

What's your opinion Powell? I think all four mentioned did.

[Powell]

>What's your
>opinion Powell? I think all four mentioned did.

Like I said, if you're really interested in this question, I'd be grateful if you asked it in a new thread. Thank you.

[Vern]

>>What's your
>opinion Powell? I think all four mentioned did.

Like I said,
>if you're really interested in this question, I'd be grateful if you asked it
>in a new thread. Thank you.

Fair enough. It's tragic that some athletes and their performances will always be inextricably linked with doping accusations, whether groundless or not. Unfortunately, where these opinions are written is of absolutely no import. IMHO.

[tafnut]

It's very predictable that any discussion about how 'great' someone of the last 50 years was will eventually get round to being a PED thread, because that's how far into the mud-hole our sport has fallen. The only good news is that with the assumption that EVERYONE was dirty (which, of course, not EVERYONE was, but it sure seems like it), then we are comparing rotten apples with rotten apples, so feel free to do that in the context there.

MY problem is when someone tries to tell me that a known druggie, let's pick on BJ for a sec, was the best - my reaction is, 'well, we'll NEVER know, will we? - cuz he was a cheat and his performances are WORTHLESS!'

That's how I feel about East Bloc performances and ANY American (or other) who cheated - their performances are worthless, i.e., unworthy of every cursory comment.

[Powell]

>>>It's tragic that some
>athletes and their performances will always be inextricably linked with doping
>accusations, whether groundless or not.

If you think it's tragic, it's funny you would want to contribute to it by asking the question you did in you previous post.

[Powell]

>That's how I feel about East Bloc
>performances and ANY American (or other) who cheated

Interesting... so you're saying all East Bloc athletes are guilty by definition, but others are only if they have been caught?

[Powell]

>She had no problem with pacing, actually she was a 800m runner too in the
>mid70's. She was a fan of even splits at 800m. In Helsinki, it was a tactical
>race for her. 1:50 is not realist, however 1:52 without problem if she had
>someone to push her.

OK, I didn't know she had prior 800 meter experience (but she wasn't a very good athlete at the time anyway).

What I find most amazing, though, is that in the same year she broke the 800 meter WR, she also beat Marita Koch at 200 meters in the Europa Cup!
Actually, from what I read, Kratochvilova was originally considering going for the 200/400 double in Helsinki, and with the form she was in, who's to say she wouldn't have won those two events... Koch wasn't at her best in 1983, and she had a hard enough time beating Merlene Ottey. She only ran 22.13 in the Helsinki final which wouldn't seem out of reach for Kratochvilova (whose PB was 21.97).

[No Name]

I just think that this issue is tough to compartmentalize in the way Powell is suggesting. If there is a great runner who became great by using PEDs, how can you talk about the runner's greatness without also talking about PEDs?

[Vern]

>>>>It's tragic that some
>athletes and their performances will always be
>inextricably linked with doping
>accusations, whether groundless or not.
>

If you think it's tragic, it's funny you would want to contribute to it by
>asking the question you did in you previous post.

No name put it perfectly Powell - I can't see how you can install some sort of performance/PED suspicion exclusivity. And I hold by my assertion that its place of discussion is irrelevant. I'm certainly not contributing to tragedy (my word, granted, but maybe overdramatic? Can I use sad instead?)!

As a non-Eastern European and non-Yank, I refute any charge of nationality bias (I assume you weren't referring to me anyway). But to keep on message as far as you're concerned, JKs performances at Helsinki were very impressive.

[Rog]

What I
>find most amazing, though, is that in the same year she broke the 800 meter WR,
>she also beat Marita Koch at 200 meters in the Europa Cup!
Actually, from what
>I read, Kratochvilova was originally considering going for the 200/400 double
>in Helsinki, and with the form she was in, who's to say she wouldn't have won
>those two events... Koch wasn't at her best in 1983, and she had a hard enough
>time beating Merlene Ottey. She only ran 22.13 in the Helsinki final which
>wouldn't seem out of reach for Kratochvilova (whose PB was 21.97).

Maybe if she hadn't been committed to the strong Czech 4x400 squad of that era, Kratochvilova could have gone for a 200/400/800 treble! After all, the first round of the 200 was two days after the final of the 400, and her run in the relay demonstrated her powers of recovery (not to mention her feats in the Europa Cup the following week).

Koch started 1983 in good form (10.83/21.82)however she was injured midseason, and so was unable to get in enough training to allow herself to reach her best form for the 400 in Helsinki, thus the decision to run the 100 and 200. She still ran well in the 100, and her 22.13 200 is worth more than it might at first appear since she suffered an appalling start and was competing on a cold, blustery day. I don't think Kratochvilova would have beaten her then, but we won't ever know for sure...

[tafnut]

>>Interesting... so you're saying all East Bloc athletes are >guilty by definition, but others are only if they have been caught?<<

because they were state-run programs and EVERYONE was in the program, they're all (relatively speaking) guilty. In America (and similarly 'free' states) the option to cheat was a personal one, so we're not sure how many did it (we CAN assume many). That's all one can infer from my statement.

[anggrek]

>My point is there are discussion going on right now on
>this board about Slaney (the one about American all-time lists in women's
>middle distances) and Barnes (the shot WR thread) and they stay on track
>without anyone barging in with the drugs angle. Yet it seems impossible to have
>a discussion about any East European athlete without having to get through the
>same old crap. If some of you guys aren't interested in discussing anything
>about Kratochvilova apart from drugs allegations, could you please start your
>own thread and stay out of this one?

as the one who originated this thread, let me just note that it began in another thread in the "current events" board when they mentioned JK's name. i did a search and found the website which i initially posted. when i posted the original link, i made sure not to mention anything about PEDs or cheating -- although that's what the website is about -- because i was purely asking a question about where/when that amazing race took place.

i am amazed at tafnut's double standard and myopia - notwithstanding his attempts to justify it. it's very typically american, sorry to say (and i am a new yorkese).

[anggrek]

>because they
>were state-run programs and EVERYONE was in the program, they're all
>(relatively speaking) guilty. In America (and similarly 'free' states) the
>option to cheat was a personal one, so we're not sure how many did it (we CAN
>assume many). That's all one can infer from my statement.

and also that you have amazing powers of generalization.

[tafnut]

and exactly WHAT IS my double standard? Americans were cheats by choice. Virtually all the E. Bloc were cheats by state programs. You're saying that's wrong? How so? I still don't see the generalization or dbl std.

Is it generalizing to say that the EBers were EXPECTED to cheat - or that the Americans were expected NOT to, but did anyway? Please elucidate.

[Rob]

..

[rexus]

That's not the full picture. Koch was injured almost the entire winter (1982 / 83) and simply couldn't undertake the usual intensity of training to permit her to achieve similar performances over 400m as she had enjoyed at the 1982 European Champs in Athens. So she moved down to 100 & 200 for the entire season, relying simply on her 'carry over' speed and endurance to achieve her 3 golds and 1 silver in Helsinki. That's why she ran 3rd leg in the 4x400 (rather than her usual anchor), as she felt vulnerable to Kratochvilova (having lost to her in the 1981 World Cup, which was the last time she had been below form).

i definitely agree with you rob. had she been running the usual 400, she would have been beaten by JK. anyway, who would be faster, JK's split of 47.6 or koch's 47.6 run at canberra? what would koch's time be if that were a split run from a relay?

[CookyMonzta]

If you're referring to Koch's anchor at the 1985 World Cup, her split was actually 47.9.

[Rog]

>anyway, who would be faster, JK's split of 47.6
>or koch's 47.6 run at canberra? what would koch's time be if that were a split
>run from a relay?

Given a good change and an obstacle-free takeover zone, I think Marita Koch could have dipped under 47 seconds on a relay leg, given the benefits of a flying start. In the Canberra relay, she was impeded by Bryzgina around the first bend, and then was content to bide her time until kicking past in the home straight. In the meantime Bryzgina slowed dramatically over each 100 segment as she suffered the effects of an over-zealous start. That's how Koch ran the final 100 about half-a-second faster in the relay than in the individual, yet still recorded a relatively less impressive time.

I suspect the reason Koch didn't hold the time for the fastest relay leg was down to the fact that she usually took over the baton for the anchor leg with a healthy lead, and so she rarely had to produce an optimal performance. However, her 48.21 in the Prague Euro 4x400 of 1978 showed she could run totally flat out when she had to, as in this instance when she took over 5-6m down on Maria Pinigina of the USSR (Koch's world record, set earlier in the week, was then 48.94).

[rexus]

If you're referring to Koch's anchor at the 1985 World Cup, her split was actually 47.9.

i'm sorry, i meant koch's solo 47.60 run,not the relay, if that 47.60 were converted to a relay run, how fast would that be? would it beat JK's 47.60 leg?

[Rob]

..

[anggrek]

>and exactly WHAT IS my double standard? Americans were cheats by choice.
>Virtually all the E. Bloc were cheats by state programs. You're saying that's
>wrong? How so? I still don't see the generalization or dbl std.

>Is it
>generalizing to say that the EBers were EXPECTED to cheat - or that the
>Americans were expected NOT to, but did anyway? Please elucidate.

i just think you are using too broad a brush to characterize the EB athletes. how about heike drechsler, uwe hohn? was there ever any evidence of these athletes using PEDs? i think we just don't know for sure what the extent of this program was.

if what you say is true, then at least the EB athletes had no choice, whereas americans are even more culpable for they cheated by choice.

[eldrick]

>>i just think you are using too broad a brush to characterize the
>EB athletes. how about heike drechsler, uwe hohn? was there ever any evidence
>of these athletes using PEDs? i think we just don't know for sure what the
>extent of this program was<

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/43/7/1262

plough thru it, with a bottle of scotch & humidor

footnote 3 is interesting

btw - google the authors : they are

LIVING LEGENDS !!!

[gh]

<<..And Koch's solo 47.60 was electrically timed, whereas
>Kratochvilova's 47.6 relay split was hand-timed, which is in any case
>empirically slower (even when timing a relay split, rather than a normal
>gun-to-tape race)...>>

That's not exactly true: if the relay was auto-timed,and the four splits add up to the auto-timed total, then the individual splits have to be very close to correct; only off by 100ths, not any 10ths.

[tafnut]

eldy - this is indeed sad:

"The androgenization of girls and young women was a most effective part of the GDR doping program. The doses given were surprisingly high, and many of the top women in track and field events and in swimming took amounts of androgenic steroids that were higher than the doses taken by male athletes in the same or comparable events. As shown by a short list of examples in Table 2 , many female throwers, sprinters, and jumpers took higher doses than their male teammates in the same event. For example, several female gold medal sprinters took higher amounts of male hormone than did the male GDR sprinters. The leading female athlete in one track event (sprint) was given a maximum annual dosage of 1460 mg, more than double the dosage recorded for the leading male GDR athlete in the same event."

yes, the broad brush is appropriate for the EB athletes, because it WAS state-sponsored, as in, yes you will do it. To characterize a difference between the EB and US cheats is absurd, except in the cases of the very young athletes who could not have known what was being done to them (see above quote). A knowing cheat is a knowing cheat.

[Pego]

< Performances could be improved with the support of these drugs within four years as follows: Shot-put (men) 2.5–4 m; Shot-put (women) 4.5–5 m; Discus throw (men) 10–12 m; Discus throw (women) 11–20 m; Hammer throw 6–10 m; Javelin throw (women) 8–15 m; 400 m (women) 4–5 sec; 800 m (women) 5–10 sec; 1500 m (women) 7–10 sec.>

This Dr. Franke's "prediction" is something that gets me to respond again and again. This is pure fantasy, the real life numbers never approached these "predictions" or if you wish his "estimates".